Martial Arts Question of the Month - Ironlife Magazine Issue #21

Every once in awhile I come across a 'personality' that catches my interest on the boards and I follow their posts for awhile because they're either interesting or entertaining. Most often they have no clue I've been checking' them out so I almost feel like the female internet hostess of Punk'D right now. This month's question is compliments of CaptainPoohPant from Ironlife.com.

A thread he created on Ironlife turned into an interesting, several page debate and I thought it would be a great eZine MA question. I have only included Ironlife's first couple of responses due to a space limit. If you would like to read it in it's entirety, click here.

Is MMA ever "too violent" for you?

I ask this because for the first time in years I've been going back and watching earlier UFC's that I loved back 3 or 4 years ago, but now I just find some of it too violent. As fight fans I guess we are desensitized to violence more than the average Joe, but was there or is there something in MMA that you think is too violent or that makes you uneasy?

Certain fights pop to mind, Gary Goodridge vs. Paul Herrara was one, that was just brutal, but one that stands out is Pat Smith vs. that one guy in I think UFC 2 where he kept repeatedly smashing him with forearms and the ref didn't do anything, luckily Pat Smith stopped the punishment himself. Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age but those particular fights make me uneasy as hell, it makes me almost feel guilty for watching. Thank god the reffing have improved tenfold over the years to the point where that kind of stuff just doesn't happen anymore and the fighter's safety is always top priority.

Currently the only thing that makes me uneasy is stomps in Pride while a guy is down, I think that needs to go. Soccer kicks are pretty crazy but I think they are fair game. What are your opinions on it?

~*~

Quote:

Blade Runner - Member @ www.IronLife.com
No. Only fight that ever really bothered me was Dave Beneteau vs. Asbel Cancio in "UFC 5." Dave was reigning down punches, and Cancio had been tapping for at least 15 seconds before the dumb-ass amateur ref stopped it. THAT was brutal. The ref was on the wrong side to see the tap and Dave didn't see it either. He got in another 10 or 15 punches, HARD!

Quote:

quedijo - Member @ www.IronLife.com
I actually believe soccer kicks are more vicious than stomps. But overall I think we have to accept that this sport's foundation is violence. It's just restricted and the 2 parties agree to kick each other's butts.

I know what you are saying though, the things that make me feel uneasy are when bones bend in an unnatural way or pop out. Or unnecessary beat downs like Igor/Enson.

Quote:

Dwizzie Luddie - Member @ www.IronLife.com
Yea I hear ya capt. I just watched that AFC tournament and I couldn't stand seeing Igor get chinned in the eye. I didn't think they were that brutal when I was younger like you said, but I guess I understand more how much it hurts to get hit with a bare fist or elbow by a world class fighter... So in that sense yes it makes me uneasy sometimes.

Quote:

Staves - Mod @ www.IronLife.com
The only time it will be too violent or dangerous is due to incompetent refs, doctors, etc.

Quote:

-=[][][]= - Member @ www.IronLife.com
sometimes to be honest captainpoohpant, I understand you, but most likely most people, including I are just desensitized... I know when I got in a fight I would feel bad after smashing this guy's face (full mount) in for calling my girl a *****...

When I say desensitized... I mean when I click on the TV, PPV or watch some HL’s , my mind goes straight into "Sport Mode" meaning I watch it not for violence but whether to see if the fighter I wanted wins, and overall watch pure competition at it's finest. I never l think at that moment that I am watching that fighter, beat the living **** out of some guy's face in, as if he is human with a family, with a brother a sister, a son or a daughter all that crap leaves the door and all I know is that I am rooting for my fighter or feeling bad for my fighter... Does that make any sense?

Overall I think some of us are just desensitized... due to the part because it is part of entertainment and you just got to remember that. I wouldn't know much the difference in pain wise in boxing compared to MMA because I am not a pro or amateur fighter... Maybe you should put this and ask real fighters to see what their opinion is, although I bet it is going to be the same thing over and over: "It is what I do and I enjoy doing it." I wonder what they tell their wives, gfs, or kids after their face or body are battered from winning or losing?

This is a good thread that definitely is another side to a sport that I treasure last... (boxing killed it for me!)

Quote:

shortz - Mod @ www.MassMuscleinc.com
Well, not sure how to answer that. What is "too" violent? Would you consider boxing too violent? For me, I would never fight in a ring. I know what trauma can do to one's brain. To each their own. I enjoy watching it though. At times, I do feel bad for the guy on the bottom getting 20 knees to the head until the ref breaks it up, but I guess he should have thought of that before he got into the ring.
So, I don't really have an answer.

Quote:

92StangMan - Mod @ www.ProActiveHealthNet.com
I don't think that MMA is too violent. It's an all out fight and each fighter knows the rules and what to expect, it's his/her job to protect themselves and win. If you watch football or even basketball, you'll notice people purposely hurting an opposing player, which is ridiculous. People have been paralyzed playing football by some dickhead who has no concern for the individual whom he is hitting other than he wants him out of the game.

Quote:

Johnny Blue Eyes - Member @ www.BeyondMass.com
I don't think it is really that violent at all. I mean damage is minimal, and refs are quick to jump in if things get crazy. If you want to talk permanent injuries, football, hockey, and boxing are far worse than MMA.

Quote:

WeirdAl - Admin @ www.BeyondMass.com
To some extent, but it's also controlled violence, and you know exactly what to expect. There are rules, and they are tightly enforced. No weapons, etc. People are typically matched up pretty evenly.
But then, it's fighting, so definitely violent!

Quote:

XChoke03 - Admin @ www.BeyondMass.com
No, it's fun!

Quote:

Mike - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
They should do more and harder stomps in Pride , I love that **** ! Really to be honest I find myself watching fights these days and I complain about the lack of violence compared to the good old days. Most fighters are all about technique and skill which is great and all , but I prefer watching the fights where both guys go at it like madmen and bash each others face in. Nowadays with all these rules and quick referee stoppages there is a lack of violence in fighting which should be brought back to the game quickly IMO ! Too many rules will eventually kill the sport as it is today.

On the other hand if you want to make this sport ' mainstream' and you want to take care of the health of the fighters than it would be wiser to not allow almost everything in the ring. But I say keep up the stomps and elbows. Man I really miss the low blows and hair pulling from the old UFC’s

Quote:

Justinian - Admin @ www.MA-Skills.com
For me personally, regulated fights like Pride/UFC etc. can’t be too violent. If you have well trained athletes, a good coach, a doctor near the ring and a competent referee there is no problem. They can all end the fight when they think they have to stop the fight. I do agree that in some of the early UFC’s the referee didn’t step in when he had too. CaptainPoohPant wrote about Pat smith, but what do you think about the Remco Pardoel vs. Orlando Wiet fight (UFC 2)? Remco stopped elbowing when he noticed Orlando passed out, before the referee stepped in… Luckily for Orlando Remco is a nice guy.

I know some might find foot stomps/soccer kicks too violent, but I don’t. It’s all in the game: that’s MMA. Like I wrote, there are people at ringside who can end the fight if they think they have to. The only fights that make me uneasy are street fights, because the fighters don’t have the guarantee that another person will step up and end the fight if they are not able to.

Quote:

I LOVE KNOCKOUTS ^^ - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
"If you have well trained athletes, a good coach, a doctor near the ring and a competent referee there is no problem."

Re: Justinian: I think these are the essential aspects that can't be missed in an MMA-match. If the doctor, the coach, the athlete and ESPECIALLY the referee are all of a high level, a match will never be too violent. The fighter is the first one to stop the fight (by submitting), and after that the referee is the most important person in the ring to protect the fighters' safety.

In the fights that were mentioned above (Pat Smith vs. Scott Morris, Gary Goodridge vs. Paul Herrera and Remco Pardoel vs. Orlando Wiet) a lot of the excessive force could have been provoked if the referees were on a higher level at that time. But the ONE time I really thought a fight was too violent, was when I saw Rene Rooze vs. Andre van den Oetelaar in CFC 1. I really think the referee should have stopped that fight. The fight was stopped because the towel was thrown, but according to Sherdog's fight finder he was already TKO. How can a fighter be TKO when the towel is thrown??? My guess is that Oetelaar's corner counted on the referee to stop the fight, but when it took too long, they threw the towel. IMO a referee should already stop the fight when someone is TKO. If the corner throws the towel when the fighter is already TKO, that means that the referee was too late.

Quote:

Emilio - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
Sometimes I kind of wonder myself why I watch MMA when somebody gets hammered real badly but a few seconds later I think that those people had made the decision to enter the ring/cage all by themselves. They were not forced to fight. And at the other side. Isn't it the exciting aspect of MMA that fights can take such dramatic changes when somebody slips for example?

Quote:

maartenjackie - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
Footstomps in pride are too violent for me

Quote:

inc - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
I'm two sided... when I look back I liked the atmosphere of UFC in the early days... there was no MMA it was for example karate vs. wrestling... but when the rules include hair pulling (World combat) and kicks in the balls... that's too brutal to call a sport. Loved the way the sport has grown. In events like pride or the current UFC the ref's are so good in stopping the fight before violence begins... and I think that's good for the competitors and most of all for the sport we all love... right?

Quote:

pieter mulder - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
In the beginning I didn't even like MMA. I thought it were a bunch of stupid people who liked to kick the **** out of each other. I watched K-1 though, and liked that a lot ! Then I started doing BJJ and also started watching some MMA vids. Now I like it a lot, as long as it both fighters are matched ! And I like the ground techniques more that in the past because I know what they are doing.

Quote:

Nick - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
I liked it from the start. But I guess some brutal **** doesn't work since they are better trained these days...
I mean the most brutal stuff was @ UFC 1 and so on. Some of the fighters weren't even athletes, but just bar fighters. Now since most UFC fighters are more skilled, you will see a change in the game plan.

Quote:

Leon - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
Re:Nick- I loved those raw (real) anything goes fights, just like Tank Abott. He was a bar fighter too! He had huge strikes but nowadays he has such a disadvantage because he still has this haymaker technique.

Quote:

Nick - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
Re: Leon- exactly what I mean, nowadays the fighters are way more skilled, so by pulling of huge haymakers (that does look brutal) you wont win, so fights have more technique in it! I like it better these days

Quote:

I_LOVE_KNOCKOUTS - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
Thursday I bought some old school **** at the video store. They sell all their tapes, and I got "World Vale Tudo Championship I & II (Marco Ruas, Oleg Taktarov, Pedro Rizzo)", and "Absolute fighting championship" (IGORRR!!!). Those were the rules!!!

Quote:

sebastiaan - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com
Personally I really like MMA today, it's a lot safer then it was and a lot more athletic.
When I was around 15 years old I bought some of those early MMA videos and they were indeed a bit too violent, or better, a bit too dangerous, but as a 15 year old I loved it simply because it looked so dam bloody. (the first cage fight in Amsterdam, with kicking to the balls and stuff)

But my boxing neighbor told me that those fights just seemed mismatched and maybe that was indeed the problem with the early UFC’s and such. Anyway, I love the way things are now! And the only thing that might be a bit to dangerous are some slams, suplexes and pile drivers, we don't want to break our opponent's neck now would we.

Quote:

RF426 - Mod @ www.ChemicalFitness.com
MMA is definitely violent.....but to say it is too violent would be stating opinion.
It is a competition involving physical contact in which the winner must either submit (usually painfully), cut (usually painful) or KO their opponent. When the competitors of this sport get in the ring/cage, they will do anything possible to be sure they are not on the receiving end.....what they are trained to do is fight. Fighting is inherently violent, thus MMA is violent...and those who take part know what they signed up for.
MMA may be too violent for some, but again, that is simply opinion.

Quote:

DANABOLIC - Mod @ www.ChemicalFitness.com
MMA is truth. It's a life lesson. Just like life, you train, you get better. If you're lazy you lose. If you're not as good as the other guy on that particular day, you lose. It teaches humility and makes you a goal oriented person. All of which are necessities of life.

Many today are shielded or shield their kids from anything that may "damage" them. Like not keeping score of their sports games or not wanting their teachers to use red ink for grading papers in fear of hurting their psyche. To me, the reality shock of things they "discover" when they're in the real world is worse than damaging them their whole life.

Violence is an instinct. By not showing them violence, in turn, they don't respect it. Learning the MMA's will in turn teach you that violence is usually the wrong solution. MMA is violent. But so are video games that kids play everyday. They're taught that using a gun is a viable and easy/quick solution to confrontation because they are not taught any other solution while they are shielded from conflict.

Quote:

Iron_Gook - Mod @ www.ChemicalFitness.com
It's only natural for MMA to be violent - hell this isn't bowling were talking about here. I'm currently taking some form of MMA at work 3 times a week and we are taught that MMA is for self defense and war fighting. There may come a critical time in your life where it comes down to you defending yourself against someone. If that time comes I prefer to be the one inflicting and projecting as much violence as possible on the other person instead of being on the receiving end.

Quote:

meathead - Member @ www.ChemicalFitness.com
No way...they should be able to fight with cuts over their eyes if they want...

Quote:

Trond - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
I would like to hear why that judge just stood there. Pretty sick.

Quote:

Rattlesnake840 - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
For the most part no, not to Violent, but as you said in some of the first UFC's They did let the fights go on way to long. I've got a HL of the first 2 UFC that shows good examples of this. If anyone wants to see I will post it in Media section.

Quote:

moki - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
Yes those early UFC's were a little too violent

Quote:

churuscan - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
Hmm let me think.....no and NO! The older UFC’s were pretty rough around the edges because no one had ever done anything quite like that in the U.S. before. The whole budget for the program was bad and the announcers didn't really know anything about the sport so the refs probably weren't that well-versed either. Nowadays UFC and Pride are alot more professional and the refs are usually better at protecting the fighters. Personally, I think MMA is alot less brutal than boxing where fighters beat on each other for up to 12 3-minute rounds. If you look at how many power punches to the head boxers receive compared to MMA fighters you would see its alot more brutal potentially. In MMA fighters have alot more options, tactics, and strategies available to defend themselves with and alot of matches end in submission where there are very few strikes thrown. As far as stomps and soccer kicks, I don't believe they should be removed from Pride because I think they make the matches more exciting and they give strikers more tools to defend themselves with against grapplers. And in my opinion they're not that hard to defend against. Alot of people say MMA is too violent but I don't see it, its nothing compared to what the ancient Romans did.

Quote:

Maverick31- Member @ www.Nokaut.com
All sports have some violence in them...

Quote:

sinister - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
I agree some of it may seem too violent or brutal. And yes we must keep in mind that we have desensitized alot by watching it daily. When I first saw pride I was shocked and it looked like some savages beating each other up to me.

I think MMA is an acquired taste. You have to watch it for a while to see it's really a sport and that the fighters usually aren't some psycho street brawlers but people who train hard and compete as real sportsmen. Talking about too violent acts, I'd say the world vale tudo competitions were pretty messy. But any brutal KO gives me the creeps - especially Mirko vs. Kevin I. Silva has some nasty finishes too, the Kondo one made me shiver.

That said, I don't think they should forbid stomps. They look nasty but are in my opinion usually less damaging than a good punch. Plus they don't cause cuts too often. It's good they don't have elbows in pride, because they do cut you up, and it's very good that both orgs banned head butts. Those are savage.

Quote:

Neo - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
I agree with you 100 % (sinister). The more you watch, the less is brutal.

Quote:

Papagaj - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
MMA is violent but then again, so is life

Quote:

slash - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
Boxing is more violent..

Quote:

Eric - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
And handball too, my friend play (half professional, however) handball and after a game, he is always hurt; ribs, knees...every time he shoot to the goal he gets kicked.(elbows!)

Quote:

Angelco - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
I don't think MMA is too violent these days. They already banned heat butts, which is a good thing. It's the sport, and in each sport there are rules. If you enter the ring you have to respect the rules and do anything you can do to win the fight, as long as you respect the rules. MMA could be violent for outsiders who are watching it for the first time, I agree on that.

Quote:

atomi50 - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
Re: Angelco- Yes but there was some pretty brutal fights that is for sure, rampage Silva 2 KO was brutal. And some others but it is normal I think. NO I must say, not too brutal at all, it's like every sport!

Quote:

ATJ_LUCKO - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
No but it is violent for my parents, when ever I think of it being too violent I say to myself: "Self, think back 2000 years ago when the gladiators fought." This is far less violent...

Quote:

atomi50 - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
Re: ATJ_LUCKO- Nicely said man, that is true. My parents don't like to watch pride, dad yes but he also think badly about PRIDE fighters!

Quote:

lorenzos - Member @ www.Nokaut.com
MMA there will never be too violent man.... never, NEVER. IT'S WHAT IS ALL ABOUT.

Quote:

HockeyFighter - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
It all has to do with skill. The longer a sport is around the better skilled participants become. It's why Joe Malone scored 44 goals in 20 games in the first NHL season, he was playing with guys that had no place in the same arena as him, or how Frank McGee scored 14 goals in a Stanley cup game against Dawson's City. Guys like Scott Morris, Fred Ettish, Joe Son had no place in the octagon and got punished brutally because of it. Not so much anymore.

Quote:

Wizard - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
I can agree with you to a certain extent with the earlier UFC's, I don't like to see someone getting hit when they aren't defending themselves. Especially when they're KO'd. The refs are alot more educated today so the fighters are safe. O ya, soccer kicks are awesome.

Quote:

kaps - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
The new rules have toned down the violence greatly....

Quote:

Atwa_66 - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
Re: kaps- by a great deal, I have a video of early UFC Knockouts, a guy dressed in martial arts clothes, no gloves, elbows a guy about 10 times in the head, 9 times after the guy was already unconscious. Not a very skilled referee IMO.. The man was unconscious and getting messed up. Crazy ass KO though.

Quote:

HockeyFighter - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
Re: Atwa- Pardoel vs. Weit or Goodridge vs. Herrera would be what this match was.

Quote:

Yoko the rippuh - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
Throws always make me cringe cause I saw something one time that made me very uneasy. A guy was throwing this dude down face forward and his arm was sticking out when he landed and it just snapped his arm backwards at the elbow. I think it affected me cause I've seen some of the worst skateboard crashes ever, I can still hear one of those kids screams. I hate seeing limbs getting snapped and bent the wrong way.
Please keep your arms in your chest if your getting thrown.

Quote:

Squezze - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
Re: Yoko- That was in the DEEP organization in Japan. I believe it was Dos Caras Jr. (who fights in a mask) against Kengo Watanabe, or Daisuke Watanabe. One of those two guys anyways. Caras clinched with Wantanabe and hit him with a belly-to-belly suplex kind of thing and he landed on his arm and it snapped at the elbow I believe.
Brutal as hell, yeah. One of the most brutal injuries I've ever seen in MMA.

Quote:

Fallout - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com
MMA is not too violent by any means. To me violence means that someone has had something done to them that wasn't wanted. Two men competing is sport. Yeah, I have seen a few things that made me think holy ****. I have thought "man they need to stop this fight NOW". However I have never thought of it as violent. Brutal, yes, tough, yes.

If it were up to me, the rules would be
1. No eye gouging
2. No hair pulling
2. No biting
3. No fish hooking
4. No blows to the neck spine or the back of the head
5. No groin shots
6. No spiking

Everything else goes. The biggest difference is NOT the rule chances that have happened in MMA, its the people competing in it. Back when ultimate fighting first started, the people fighting in the UFC had no idea how to fight. Now its top level athletes who know how to defend themselves properly. People have died in hockey, baseball, boxing, car racing and countless other sports. In fact, a football player just lost his life in an area football league. No, MMA is not violent. A pitcher throwing a 100 mph fastball at someone's head is violent.

~*~

I'm astounded at the honest responses this generated.. I expected far more replies just shrugging it off like it was no big deal. Thank you for being so open about your opinions.. you're a great group of guys!
Special thank you to CaptainPoohPant for allowing me to swipe his question without him knowing it

Till next month, stay safe~
~lacey