Martial Arts Question of the Month - Ironlife Magazine Issue #19

I recently watched a movie called Blood Sport on TV.
To be honest, I turned it on mainly because I saw Jean Claude Van damme's name in the TV guide.

It was really good in my opinion. (except when the fights got ugly since I'm not big on violence and then I missed parts because I wasn't watching them punch each other.) Anyway, sections of the movie made me realize that the art, philosophy and spiritual aspects of MAs can't be learned through books or through just any of the many MA schools listed in the yellow pages. The disciplines are passed down from generation to generation by way of direct contact with someone truly knowledgeable. I have also been reading alot regarding MAs during the past year and I'm given the distinct impression that the philosophy behind the art teaches you NOT to fight.

If that's true, why are there tournaments?
Which MA do you practice and have you ever competed outside your training facility? If so, do you think the great masters of past are rolling over in their grave knowing you're competing for prize money and awards?

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Gsus - Senior Mod @ www.Ironlife.com

I believe that what you say is true, when you are trained to fight and are a competent fighter you don't have anything to prove to anybody, so therefore you don't need to act tough or start trouble. About competition though, martial arts is all about the competition. It's about the challenge between 2 people. That is why I love fighting, because it's just you vs. him. Most other sports I have played have been team based and I'm not much of a team guy really, so I prefer to fight. I also especially prefer to fight against someone that knows how. I don't see people who can't fight as a challenge and therefore see no need to fight them. So while you are correct about it teaches you not to fight, I think that is more based on outside of competition. In other words people who know how to fight do not abuse the skills they have where as if your fighting somebody who trains as hard as you do, that is competition and the challenge we are all after.

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Dirty - Member @ www.IronLife.com

You really need to find out if what you are learning works don't you?
You wouldn't go to college to become a doctor to never set foot in a hospital would you?

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messk - Member @ www.IronLife.com

The point is not to act violent. I am totally against violence, and I have never started a fight (I did finish some in self defense). MA are not about going into a bar and beating up some random guy who only thinks about getting some, and fighting is the last thing on his mind. That's pure violence, and as I said I am against it. However, if you fight a guy who trains and wants to fight you, and you want to fight him, it's not violence (most media don't understand this), it's, as Gsus said, competition.

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ziggy(o)(o) - Member @ www.IronLife.com

Fighting is a thing we men have enjoyed since we pulled women by the hair into our caves... its in our nature... yes. competition

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DaChinkOfSteel - Member @ www.IronLife.com

Isn't martial arts about learning "the way"? While I do agree that violence is bad...competitive combat is not. Obviously, the original intent of martial arts was/is to teach a person how to physically and mentally overcome an aggressor in order to LIVE. I believe the fundamental truth of training in the martial arts (all martial art styles, for that matter) is self mastery...mastery of one's body, mind, and emotions...for the purpose of self-preservation, defending one's loved ones, and defending one's property. We, as martial artists, must also not forget that every style is as much "martial" as it is "art"...so we must each find our individual paths within our styles. In order to find that "truth"...it may be necessary to compete against other individuals seeking the same truth...the early UFC's are a perfect example.

I believe the "new trend" in martial arts becoming "mixed-martial arts" is simply a reformation of what martial arts originally were...just look at Judo as an example...Judo began as Jiu Jitsu...it became largely sportified and many submissions were eliminated and rules were changed to make the sport "more exciting" by focusing on ippons, rather than overall grappling as in pre-WW2 Judo...now, with the emergence of BJJ (a child of pre-WW2 Judo) as an effective FIGHTING art, Judo players are slowly going back to pre-WW2 Judo in order to prove its effectiveness in MMA competition (Yoshida, Ogawa, etc.)

I'm just a strong believer that all martial art systems were at some point exactly the same...when people started fighting (probably at the beginning of our existence,) I honestly don't believe they had rules like "no punches to the face", "no chokes", and "striking only, when grappling begins, you'll be broken up and restarted." It's just through necessity that each martial art style has taken its own focus on combat...for example, it's simply a lot easier to take a small aspect of combat and train it exclusively and become a master of it, rather than train all aspects of combat. It's just human nature to make things easier for ourselves. Also, it was out of necessity for the sake of competition...when early schools did challenge matches to prove effectiveness, I'm sure they had to set some sort of rule system up, be it limiting combat (grappling only) or liberating (vale tudo.) With the reemergence of martial arts challenge matches, in the form of MMA competition, I honestly believe we are witnessing martial arts competition as it was originally intended: two fighters proving their mastery over themselves through combat...when all is said and done, they respect each other as fellow martial artists and hopefully have learned more about themselves and their styles.

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tofu - Member @ www.IronLife.com

The thing about it is, fighting isn't about the violence as many people see it. I've fought in the Iowa Fighting Championships and in local shows on a few occasions and it's never been about proving myself to others. It's about proving myself to me. It's like playing chess, the thing is, you aren't there trying to beat your opponent, but work with him in a manner to hopefully better the both of you. That's why the best guys learn as much from their losses as from their wins. Because of this, I think that more than anything you are helping the tradition of your martial art in a way that isn't about bravado or testosterone.

As far as the comment on trying it to see if it works. Since when do combat arts actually need to be done. You shouldn't need to know if they work because you aren't doing it for a living. Those who do it for a living, that's kind of different, but that's as much about the money as it is about the honor.

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Illusionsize - Member @ www.ChemicalFitness.com

It's a natural progression of the arts over history.
1. I'm not sure where, along the way, the whole "turn the other cheek" philosophy permeated the Martial arts. I picture the ancient Japanese Samurai going to war in feudal Japan and fighting for their Liege lords to acquire land, wealth and prestige.

I'm pretty sure that if you insulted one of these soldiers he didn't laugh it off. He basically kicked your ass. My belief is that men who warred wanted peace, so they cultivated a "tolerant" attitude among students, requesting that they not fight. Now in defense of land and country or for personal safety was acceptable but just fighting for "fun" was wrong. This became an integral part of training as time wore on.

I think we also use the "turn the other cheek" logic to rationalize our practice of a violent art that for all intents and purposes, we probably shouldn't be teaching to our little kids. Yes, it's fun for them and taught in a certain way is safe and non-violent. But then, really, it's no longer a martial art, which brings me to tourneys and fighting.....
If you train all your life and never fight, then how do you know that what you have learned is effective?. Their is no quicker way to determine what works than a good street fight. Since that would be too violent, not to mention illegal, organized tournaments exist. They allow you to pit yourself against other artists of a similar caliber. This, IMO, is healthy in allowing you to learn and grow as a martial artist and a person.

Also Tourneys provide a yardstick of instructor competence, student ability and of course, no small amount of marketing appeal for many of the $$$ making Dojo's. Prizes and trophies also provide a different type of motivation and reward for some students who fail to see or are un-interested in the spiritual side of MA.

Look at boxing. You don't see this discussion even taking place. It has never held to the "turn the cheek" philosophy and has always been about the practical. You don't wear a pretty white gi or need to bow, kneel, pray, count in a foreign language, call the coach sensei/sifu/guru/master or meditate for hours under a waterfall to box. You DO need to train, spar, sweat, spar some more and work hard to be competitive. Boxing dispenses with all the traditional "flowery" things and gets to the heart of the matter, fighting.
Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE traditional Chinese arts. I think a 5 wheel fist form is beautiful when done by a master. I also believe that personal enlighten is achieved by following a traditional path. I just sometimes question it's practicality. Then again, I 'd like to see more spiritual consideration from some of the UFC fighters. It's balance that is achieved I'd guess by an individuals personality and their own goals within their art.

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92StangMan - Mod @ www.ProActiveHealthNet.com

I couldn't count the times I have watched Bloodsport and enjoyed it as a movie. There are some things I've read about Frank Dux after I saw the movie that changed my mind a little, but that's for another conversation.

Our school doesn't really emphasize on not fighting outside of it, but when we do certain moves, they will let us know which ones can REALLY screw someone up and to watch out for. I've never heard any of the guys that I train with getting into a fight. A few of them are bouncers and that bar room brawls and the occasional throwing someone out is normal for their line of work, but nothing in their personal life.

In my opinion, these are the reasons why I would try to walk away from a fight. First off, you NEVER have a clue what a guy is capable of doing. Going by looks, two of our purple belts in BJJ look nothing like a fighter, I'm a lot stronger than they are but they would kill me. Second, a street fight is a lot different than sparring. When you spar, it's in a controlled environment where you know it's just you and your opponent. In the street, it could be you and your attacker, then a few seconds later, he'll have three to four guys with him. Another reason why I would try to walk away is not having anything to prove. A good analogy is when I am driving the Mustang. Every other 4 and 6 cylinder out there is wanting to race and I act like they do not exist. I have nothing to prove, I know what my car is capable of doing and will probably win over a Neon. People feel like they have to prove something to others and themselves so they try to start fights and look big.

When two people fight in a tournament, they're not fighting out of anger but in competition. They train very hard in what they do and lay it on the line when they compete against someone else. No reason why anyone would roll over in the grave but if anything, be thrilled that their martial art is still being practiced.

http://www.ma-skills.com

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Justinian - Admin @ www.MA-Skills.com

First of all, Bloodsport is one of the best movies of Jean Claude van Damme I really liked that movie and probably saw more then 4 times or so.

I think that if you want to be a good fighter, you have to compete. At least that�s my experience. I have trained with guys who have trained for a long time, but never competed. You will notice the difference. I practice Judo, Jiu Jitsu, MMA and kickboxing (if I have the time). If you compete in tournaments you will learn a lot more then when you just go to you training facility and train with the same guys over and over again. For this reason I think it is also good to train outside your gym once in a while, just stay loyal to your own gym. The fact that nowadays you can compete for prize money isn�t strange and I don�t think the �great masters� would roll over in their graves. The martial arts are evolving (just like everything else) and I am sure that they would encourage it.

Your point that the philosophy behind martial arts is not to fight. Well, I can tell from my experience that when I train I feel less aggressive in everyday life, more relaxed. That�s why my parents wanted me to start with Judo when I was 5 years old, so I could control my anger.

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Ronald - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com

They teach you not to fight a real fight. A tournament is still practicing your sport.

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shyne - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com

You're not fighting, you're competing...
It's the only way to see who's best, at the moment.
besides bloodsport is fake, it's a movie...

In most martial arts matches aren't even full contact or suppose to hit/hurt the opponent.

I think the great master are very proud of how big the sport of mixed martial arts is becoming world wide. Bruce Lee also fought, and who's better known them him?

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Christophe - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com

Re: what Justinian wrote: "I can tell from my experience that when I train I feel less aggressive in everyday life, more relaxed."
Same here!

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harry - Member @ www.MA-Skills.com

Re: What Justinian wrote: "The martial arts are evolving (just like everything else) and I am sure that they would encourage it."
Totally agree with this.

But I don't agree with shyne, that you are. You're not fighting, you're competing...

Maybe some people see it or feel it that way, but I think a lot of people see it just like me, that it is just really hard "permitted" fighting (with or without rules). Where else can you get an adrenaline rush like this? It�s the ultimate, two opponents standing in front of each other knowing one of us/them is going down. Eeh that's my opinion but I am just a best stuurlui stand to rampart.

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sinister - Member @ www.Nokaut.com

I think your question is very interesting and I kind of agree, all martial arts tend to have rules like "don't fight" and stuff. But really, what else will you do with karate (being the most famous martial art with ethics/rules) or Muay Thai?

I think the point of that is not to use them to harm people intentionally for no reason, but only when really necessary. The point is in a tournament everyone agrees to fight and there's usually no real harm done. So I don't think it's that much of a big deal.
MAs are just great, man.

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Blue Minotaur - Member @ www.Nokaut.com

In a tournament, one's skill is being tested and it is a way of improving one's technique. it is just like putting theory into practice. The martial arts philosophy of non-violence applies to the real world wherein a martial artist is encouraged to avoid any sort of fight as much as he can and to only use his martial skills as a last resort. You see, the conventional martial arts way of non-violence does not literally tell a person "NOT TO FIGHT" but to rather to "AVOID FIGHTING IN REAL LIFE." Why do you think Karatekas and Kickboxers spar in the Dojo? Isn't sparring also fighting? That itself contradicts the statement that "Martial Artists shouldn't fight." Sparring is done because it's the only way to know whether the techniques practiced by the students can really be useful for self-defense. You can't risk fighting in the streets with thugs if you don't have any experience in using the techniques you've learned. As for tournaments, they are somewhat similar to sparring, only that they are of a higher level. While sparring ensures that a student can apply what he learns, tournaments will enable the student to perfect his skills by fighting among high-level opponents. This will give him an edge in terms of confidence in his technique. Of course tournaments differ from real life situations because of the rules which govern them, but it is a way of simulating real combat, which prepares the martial artist for the real thing. Also, tournaments are quite exciting. Wouldn't you agree?

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ATJ_LUCKO - Member @ www.Nokaut.com

You watched Bloodsport.... So you should know what a Kumite is....
Kumite = Tournament
Tournament = Kumite
Simple math.

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Maverick31 - Member @ www.Nokaut.com

Tournament is to help you develop/test your skill.

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Neo - Member @ www.Nokaut.com

Why exams on college? It would be better right? Everybody would be great economists, lawyers etc etc. Everybody would be masters.

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RdRookie - Member @ www.Extreme-Athlete.com

No... the great masters of the past fought for money also at times, but more so for respect and the advancement of their arts. For example, Helio Gracie, the father of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. He fought any and all comers when he was younger for basically the purpose of promoting his fighting style. And look, it worked. It's probably the most popular style of fighting in the world I'd dare to say.

Martial arts are about respect. You are taught not to fight, but not flat out blatantly said. Martial arts teaches you confidence and respect. The confidence that you can beat up 9 out of 10 people that approach you in the street, but the respect in yourself as well as your art or arts you train in to be the bigger person and do everything within your power to avoid street fights.

Martial arts in a tournament or sanctioned fight, that's great! The "masters of the past" competed in Tae Kwan Doe tournament, grappling tournaments, etc. Competing in tournaments is simply seeing who's better. Or, for the person fighting in it, it's testing yourself, as well as your experience, as well as your skills, as well as (most importantly) how the martial art or arts you train in stack up against others. Or where you rank amongst other fellow MMA fighters.

You are taught NOT to fight outside of a controlled, sanctioned, respectable, HONORABLE situation. If mixed martial artists were not supposed to fight, what would be the point? It would be like a basketball player practicing basketball for 4 or 5 years, but never ever playing in a game or playing in a 1-on-1 game to test what he's learned over those such years of training... catch my drift?
Hope that helps!

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The_Medic - Member @ www.Extreme-Athlete.com

I couldn't agree with rook more on this one !!!!

In some martial arts are now considered a sport , Olympic sport even such as Judo , the martial art that I practice . It gives you a chance to compete and see what exactly you know . Your strengths and weakness if you will . I know that the tournaments I go too all over the south east , it's like a big family . I see the same players at the bulk of the fights I go to . Fight alot of them over and over again over the course of a year , sometimes I beat them and sometimes I don't but we all walk away very good friends . Take rdrookie and myself for instance .... I would love to train and spar with him even though we are from similar but at the same time different styles . Gives me a chance to see some different things and learn from him , same thing in tournaments . Not only that but it gives you a chance to face a fear ,, the unknown . Dr Kano the founding father of judo (which derived from the first form of unarmed combat in Japan Ju Jitsu ) always encouraged students to find the one player they feared the most to spar with ... face your fears and learn from that person .
The tournament system today is growing by leaps and bounds and I fully expect to see it take off even more in the near future . As for why I fight , simple as this , I enjoy it ... gives me some release from everyday life .

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RdRookie - Member @ www.Extreme-Athlete.com

Re: by The_Medic "Dr kano the founding father of judo (which dericed from the first form of unarmed combat in Japan Ju Jitsu ) always encouraged students to find the one player they feared the most to spar with ... face your fears and learn from that person."
I couldn't agree more with that. The tougher the opponent you face in practice, the "less-tough" the opponent you face in the ring or competition will seem.

Every single time we have open-mat in my BJJ classes, or even in Thai Boxing (which I regret a lot), I always, when we partner up, ask my instructors to be my partners. My BJJ instructor at first would use me immediately every time. I've gotten to the point now that I can hang quite a while, and I do try my own submissions. 9 times out of 10, he escapes them all and/or turns them into one on me, but grappling with someone THAT good allows me to see my weaknesses and the holes in my game. He's so good, that he will and does exploit every hole or opportunity that I give him. Therefore each time this happens, I learn to sharpen my ground game in that particular area as to not get that flaw exploited when I finally fight.

I know that was a lot of typing, but basically, if you play Michael Jordan one on one everyday for 3 months, win or lose, when it comes time to play a one on one game with... Carmello Anthony, you're going to do MUCH better than you ever thought. It's like the quote "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in the ring." The harder you train and the more you let your instructors beat you and keep your pride low enough to handle it, the easier it's going to seem when you go up against a guy who's not as good as your instructor.

Hope that makes sense...

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Purity - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com

MMA fighters don't do it for money. there's hardly any $$ in the sport.

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General - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com

The whole thing with martial artists training so they don't have to fight stands true I suppose, for many. Don't confuse competitive sport fighting with street fighting. that's the difference. In something like Pride or UFC, you compete in a sport fight to demonstrate your skill in the arts you train in.

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Mr. Beelzebub - Member @ www.GlobalMMA.com

Mixed MArtial Arts is an evolution of traditional martial arts; MMA focuses more on training and the physical aspect of MA and not so much on the philosophy and morality side of the art. There are no Katas or dances in MMA, as the sport has taken what works in a sport-like environment and dropped what is considered obsolete.

This is why some MMA practitioners consider traditional Karate, Kung FU or Tae Kwon Do useless in a real life fighting situation.

Also, MMA includes western disciplines like Greco-Roman and free-style wrestling, boxing and kick boxing and this disciplines do not share the traditional martial artist way of living.

MMA is just a sport just like any other out there. And in any sport you train your ass off and then you test your skills against others.

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I was really hesitant to ask this question initially because it's really a more difficult question to answer than it looks. So, I want to thank anyone who took it on.. your replies are great.
I'd also like to give a special SHOUT OUT to Mr. Beelzebubb!

Til next month, stay safe~
~lacey

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