Ranking Dariusz at 175

[Tam-Tam]

Ive posted this on a few boards, so this is mostly for your benefit Blue:

With his career quickly winding down and no big chance to increase his worth im interested in the general consesus here, because I'd never really thought about his career in its entirity and how it stands among his peers. In reference to that, just WHO would be his peers in such a ranking?

He is obviously not a top ten LH, no brainer. But just how many rungs below the Loughrans, Jones' and Fitzsimmons of the world does he sit? In front of a man like Hill? How about Maxim?

He is so often over looked these days because of his reluctance to make a Jones fight happen as well as the fact that about zero % of the american population has ever seen him fight. Yet his career is quite fine, and IMO for all the talk of his resume being suspect, this man is no Khaosai Galaxy.

Dariusz Michalczewski never beat no Floyd Patterson. How dare you mention him in the same sentence as Joey Maxim? Virgil Hill had 20 real title defenses, and I think the comparison with Galaxy is apt, especially over the past 4 years. I briefly compared the two in my article for Iron Life #4.

Michalczewski gets no rating from me. I wouldn't pick him over any of the top 15 middleweights of all time if they fought at 175. The mere thought of some fool ranking him over Jimmy Bivins makes me uncomfortable.

Rubio likes comparing Dariusz to Khaosai but its like comparing a bruised apple with a rotten one. I think I could see ranking Dariusz as a top 20 light hevayweight of all time. Not giving it much thought but I'd put Dariusz in the same league as say Victor Galindez and Matthew Saad Muhammad. Both of whom would probably be in the bottom quarter of my top 20 light heavyweight list.

[Tam-Tam]

Looking at the two responses, I don't have a lot of time for your's Rubio.

It ooze's hate, and I don't find that sort of answer particularly informative.

I'd definitely take Greb, Robinson, LaMotta, Lloyd Marshall, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler over Michalczewski. Wouldn't you? Dariusz is/was a moderately skilled brawler with a load of heart and he's fun to watch. I also give him credit for having a strong claim to the legitimate World Light Heavyweight Championship.

But a prime Marvin Hagler would tear him a new asshole. So would Tommy Hearns, for that matter. I wouldn't even think of putting him in there with Greb.

Head-to-head, Maxim would completely outbox him with his superior speed. How do you see a fight between Maxim and Michalczewski going? Michalczewski lacks the speed or the technique to outpoint him, and Maxim was a tough son of a bitch who wouldn't quit. I'd even give the heart edge to Maxim. Do you think that Michalczewski could have stayed in there as long as Maxim did with Sugar Ray Robinson in the 100+ degree (some say 110+ degree) heat?

Dariusz is good, but I see some huge problems in ranking him among the top 20 light heavyweights of all time:

-Lack of speed
-Lack of good opposition besides an old Hill
-Didn't fight the best fighters of his era (Jones, Tarver, Johnson, Maske)
-Less than world-class chin (Why does everyone forget Michalczewski-Roccighiani I? A single punch put Dariusz down.)
-Unrefined technique
-Lack of absolutely top flight (IBHOF, etc...) opposition beyond Hill

Think about the bottom quarter of the top 20 light heavyweights Rubio and tell me they arent as flawed. Light heavyweight is a very top heavy division but it trails off considerably after the top 10 on.

1. Ezzard Charles
2. Michael Spinks
3. Archie Moore
4. Bob Foster
5. Gene Tunney
6. Roy Jones
7. Sam Langford
8. Billy Conn
9. Tommy Loughran
10. Harry Greb

(the next 10 are in rough order)

11. Jimmy Bivins
12. Bob Fitzsimmons
13. Patrick Carpentier
14. Maxie Rosenbloom
15. Joey Maxim
16. Dick Tiger
17. Gus Lesnevich
18. Dwight Muhammad Quai
19. Virgil Hill
20. Tommy Hearns

That's very rough right now, but I'd pick every man on that list in their prime very strongly over Michalczewski. I'd less strongly pick Hill over him, although he's mostly on that list for his accomplishments.

[Tam-Tam]

Originally posted by Rubio MHS
I'd definitely take Greb, Robinson, LaMotta, Lloyd Marshall, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler over Michalczewski. Wouldn't you? Dariusz is/was a moderately skilled brawler with a load of heart and he's fun to watch. I also give him credit for having a strong claim to the legitimate World Light Heavyweight Championship.

Robinson, Greb, Marshall given. Hagler, LaMotta or Monzon? Based on what exactly. Hagler much too small, didn't have the legs to move like he'd need to and wouldn't have the tools to keep Dariusz off of him. Simple. LaMotta plays right into Dariusz game. Sure he was a huge 160 pound fighter, but he was also no natural light heavy either. He'd be more suited to 168 IMO, and Dariusz cuts weight to fight at 175, and of note he also fought well at 190. Monzon does better then hagler of LaMotta, but guess what, he wasn't the boxer who'd be up on his toes that he'd need to be either. All too small, and didn't prove that they could handle it at 175 against a very strong LH.

But a prime Marvin Hagler would tear him a new asshole. So would Tommy Hearns, for that matter. I wouldn't even think of putting him in there with Greb.

Well, see above for Greb and Hagler. Hearns though, sure I would give Tommy a better than good shot. Id make him favourite actually. Why? Cos he actually COULD fight at 175, had the size, jab and power and proved it by beating a prime Hill. That one at least makes sense Rubio, most of the rest didn't.

Head-to-head, Maxim would completely outbox him with his superior speed. How do you see a fight between Maxim and Michalczewski going? Michalczewski lacks the speed or the technique to outpoint him, and Maxim was a tough son of a bitch who wouldn't quit. I'd even give the heart edge to Maxim. Do you think that Michalczewski could have stayed in there as long as Maxim did with Sugar Ray Robinson in the 100+ degree (some say 110+ degree) heat?

How can you question his heart? With his style of fighting, if he didn't have heart he would have lost many times before. Dariusz would quit would he? Based on what Rubio?

Also, make note I didn't place him in front of Maxim and never said he'd beat him. I asked would you place him behind him.

Dariusz is good, but I see some huge problems in ranking him among the top 20 light heavyweights of all time:

-Lack of speed
-Lack of good opposition besides an old Hill
-Didn't fight the best fighters of his era (Jones, Tarver, Johnson, Maske)
-Less than world-class chin (Why does everyone forget Michalczewski-Roccighiani I? A single punch put Dariusz down.)
-Unrefined technique
-Lack of absolutely top flight (IBHOF, etc...) opposition beyond Hill

-Lack of speed? Well, sure thats the plan to beat him isn't it. He isn't very quick and movement and hand speed bother him. For a while. He is similar to a old 140 pound Chavez in that respect. Another man of which you have little respect or appreciation for.
-He fought everyone he had the opportunity to fight. Yes he's fought many of Jones throw aways, and while he struggled with a number of them later in his career after he started to slide, he stillbeat each and every one of them. It didn't take Dariusz two fights to get a win over Griffin either. Roccighiani is about as good as any 175 pounder that Jones fought by the way.
-Less than world class chin? What a crock of shit. The punch came OPENLY after the ref had called break. Dariusz drops his gaurd and Graciano clearly cheap shotted him. Caught him solidy and Dariusz went down. That means nothing about his chin. Fuck, Marlon Starling had the same thing happen to him, and wow he had a "less than world-class chin" also didnt he......
-He is a face first brawler. He has tehcnnique, he just isn't blessed with blazing speed or defensive skills, so he uses what he has to his advantage.
-I see, and Virgil Hill had stellar competition throughout his reign eh? And for that matter, so has Jones? Maxim never really performed that well against top competition outside of Patterson either by the way. Robinson was perhaps the greatest fighter to ever live, and yet he was old, out of his weight and was VERY overmatched physically, and yet he was clearly in front of Maxim at the time Sugar quit.

Bias. Simple.

I never questioned Michalczewski's heart. In fact, I listed it as one of his biggest attributes. I simply stated that Maxim's was better. And how come you say Marshall would beat Michalczewski, but then say that LaMotta and Hagler were too small? Marshall was actually smaller than LaMotta or Hagler.

Someone with a world class chin (in the all-time list sense) doesn't go down from a single punch in his prime at his prime weight class, at least by my reckoning. Michalczewski had a good chin, but he wasn't Gene Tunney.

[Tam-Tam]

Originally posted by Rubio MHS
I never questioned Michalczewski's heart. In fact, I listed it as one of his biggest attributes. I simply stated that Maxim's was better. And how come you say Marshall would beat Michalczewski, but then say that LaMotta and Hagler were too small? Marshall was actually smaller than LaMotta or Hagler.

Because Marshall had boxing talents that LaMotta and Hagler didn't have, and Lloyd fought bigger men a large portion of his career. Thats why.

Someone with a world class chin (in the all-time list sense) doesn't go down from a single punch in his prime at his prime weight class, at least by my reckoning. Michalczewski had a good chin, but he wasn't Gene Tunney.

If that punch was to have came during the action, I would agree. You know the circumstances surrounding that, and yet you still stand firm. Fair enough. Your opinion bud.

But once again, Starling didn't have a world class chin? How about Ted Lewis? He didn't either?

[Red Eagle]

What little I know of Dariusz, i don't feel he'd beat LaMotta. It probably be as easy for Jake to climb to 175 and brawl w/ Dariusz as it was to practically kill himself making 160 and fighting Robinson as dry as he was. Dariusz might be big for a LHW, but does he really have the power to stop LaMotta? NO! And in fact LaMotta might've had the power to get the better of Michalczewski. Hagler was small, but again he w/stood Hearns and if he went head-to-head w/ the Pole it's likely he could get a decision. Mozon was tall and could probably fill into LHW well. Not a slick boxer, but certainly skilled and powerful.

[Tam-Tam]

LaMotta had the power to hurt Dariusz at 175? Id love to know why you'd think that....

And as I said before, Jake was a big middleweight, but he was still natrually MUCH smaller then Dariusz is.

Originally posted by Red Eagle
What little I know of Dariusz, i don't feel he'd beat LaMotta. It probably be as easy for Jake to climb to 175 and brawl w/ Dariusz as it was to practically kill himself making 160 and fighting Robinson as dry as he was. Dariusz might be big for a LHW, but does he really have the power to stop LaMotta? NO! And in fact LaMotta might've had the power to get the better of Michalczewski. Hagler was small, but again he w/stood Hearns and if he went head-to-head w/ the Pole it's likely he could get a decision. Mozon was tall and could probably fill into LHW well. Not a slick boxer, but certainly skilled and powerful.

Hearns was at his best at welter weight and junior middleweight power wise. He carried it well but I have a hard time believing that Hearns had the same power at 160 that he did at 147/154. Hagler was built like a brick shithouse at 160, his frame wouldnt work well at 175 and Dariusz is a good size 175 lb. fighter. Monzon wouldnt be all that good at 175 either, he wasnt exactly slight at 160 and he wasnt a big weight cutter either as far as I know.

LaMotta was never a very big hitter. He was a rugged boxer-puncher with good accuracy and a lot of pressure.

I don't know. I think that at 6'2", Monzon would be more able to hold an extra 8 pounds or so (that's all he'd need to beat Michalczewski) than 5'10" Marshall was.

[Red Eagle]

I don't wantto come across like I'm saying LaMotta had great power. I think being more of a natural Super MW he hit harder than most other guys at MW at the time. I see it like Rubio at 6'2" it seems plausible that Monzon could put on just enough weight to move up w/ the LHW's.

It's a weird thing how differet frames allow fighters to put on wieght and how that affects their overall careers. Like Armstrong he was smaller than most his opponents, but still had the ability to pack on weight and keep his speed and endurance and be competitive in different weight classes (4). Armstrong wasn't very tall either.

While Monzon might be stretching it at LHW and he was a tall 6'2".

I think a 165 or even 160 pound version of Monzon or Hagler beats a 175 pound version of Michalczewski. It's not a matter of them being able to go up to 175 and fight as well as they did at 160. It's a matter of them being exponentially more talented than Dariusz is/was.

Rubio - Let me just say that I totally agree with you - Not for any logical reason other than I really don't like DM and his supposed "record breaking fight" he has coming up this weekend.

I find it highly difficult to rate a man who has never left German soil to fight - Germany is right next to a slew of other coutnries and only a short flight from England - Which at least would make it LOOK like he tried to fight in some other countries - God I hate him and how the German fans are making out like he is REALLY breaking Marciano and Louis' undefeated and most defences record - It REALLY gets me mad - I don't know why - But I just can't respect of like this guy.

Well, he has fought in Poland...

I fixed your double post, by the way. I feel all special that I figured out how to do that all by myself.

[BADrew]

What you you mofo's think of Julio Gonzales' chances of beating D Mich? His style is similiar to Richard Hall (I don't think he has Hall's chin but probably a slightly better defense) who gave Dariusz fits. I think Julio's chin lets him down, he suffers a couple of knockdowns, and it costs him a close decision or a BS stoppage.

I think Michalczewski's ripe to be beat.